CF&E ex CSX exxNS exxxCR exxxxPRR

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Notch 8
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CF&E ex CSX exxNS exxxCR exxxxPRR

Post by Notch 8 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:13 am

Just something to think about, I know in the slpit that the STB gave CSX the former PRR line, but my question is that wouldn't it had more value to the NS or did the purchase of the Waterlevel Route west of Cleveland make this not needed as same for the CSX with the Chicago Line.
Good route for a high speed rail coridor just doesnt go through any cities or is that a good thing !
Is there presently any traffic that goes from one end of the line to the other and what is the lenth of the CF&E, is any of it still doubled tracked ?
Is Dunkirk OH the only tower on this line ? as of 2-26-06 who's dispatching, whats the need for a dispatcher on this line any how ? like your going to encounter a stray train, how dumb is that ! might need one for a diamond but heck that's a phone call away,.
Is there any Chicago to Cicinatti traffic on this line ?

Reality is to Experience, A Rough Experience is Reality !

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Re: CF&E ex CSX exxNS exxxCR exxxxPRR

Post by Guest » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:22 pm

Notch 8 wrote:Just something to think about, I know in the slpit that the STB gave CSX the former PRR line, but my question is that wouldn't it had more value to the NS or did the purchase of the Waterlevel Route west of Cleveland make this not needed as same for the CSX with the Chicago Line.
Good route for a high speed rail coridor just doesnt go through any cities or is that a good thing !
Is there presently any traffic that goes from one end of the line to the other and what is the lenth of the CF&E, is any of it still doubled tracked ?
Is Dunkirk OH the only tower on this line ? as of 2-26-06 who's dispatching, whats the need for a dispatcher on this line any how ? like your going to encounter a stray train, how dumb is that ! might need one for a diamond but heck that's a phone call away,.
Is there any Chicago to Cicinatti traffic on this line ?

Reality is to Experience, A Rough Experience is Reality !

Mike

Good question for sure. And one would be hard pressed, without a crystal ball, to know exactly what reasoning went into the decision.

Afterall, didn't NS buy this line from Conrail (FW-Chicago) prior to the Conrail split?

My personal suspicion is that the line was thrown to CSX as a bargaining chip.

Not that CSX particularly wanted the line, but as an insurance policy against any argument that the Conrail split would cause anticompetitive conditions to arise.

That's my theory anyway, the trade off being a pre-emptive strategy against possible objections to the grand scheme of things.

If anybody has any inside scoop on that, one way or the other, I'd love to hear it

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CIOR
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Post by CIOR » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:18 pm

NS bought it west of Fort Wayne.
It was actually given to CSX to balance the trackage across northern Indiana/Ohio and also give CSX another route if trouble would come. CSX said they would add traffic, but never really did.
There is a small amount of business, will leave that for the west guys.

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rrnut282
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Post by rrnut282 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:48 am

My understanding was that the Pennsy line was given to CSX to "balance" the number of tracks into Chicago to three each. NS had two on the NYC Water Level Route and one on the NKP. CSX reinstalled the second track on the B&O and giving them the Pennsy a third. I'll concede that there were other issues driving that decision, but on the surface, it looks like the NTSB was trying to make a fair split.

As for the Pennsy being a good candidate for high-speed rail, take a look at the INDOT website (http://www.in.gov/dot/modetrans/train/p ... _rails.pdf) and you will see, it already has been identified as such. Rumor has it when the Broadway Ltd was late, the only speed restriction between Fort Wayne and Gary was a 100mph curve in Warsaw. Now that would have been a ride!
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Greg46m
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Post by Greg46m » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:37 am

I find it hard to believe that NS would willingly give up this line if they outright owned it. Are you sure that they didn't just have a long-term lease of the line from CR? I don't see how the NTSB could have actually said that NS had to hand the line over if they fully owned it. I could see the NTSB giving CSX the line from FW-Crestline and mandatory trackage rights on the rest of it from FW-Chicago, but forcing a RR to just hand over a line they owned, I dunno. Just my $.02

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Post by KEITH_HARRIS » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:38 am

rrnut282, QUOTE "THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A RIDE"
IN MY QUALIFACICATION AS A DISPATCHER I RODE NO. 40 HEAD END FT. WAYNE TO CHICAGO WITH AN ENGINEER NAMED JOHN DUXBURY. HE KNEW THE RAILROAD WELL.(GOING THROUGH SOME TEN MPH RESTRICTIONS AT 25 TO 30. HIS QUOTE "I'M SAFE".
IN A LATER CONVERSATION WITH A BLOCK OPERATOR THAT HAD FIRED STEAM WITH THIS MAN, HE TOLD OF A TRIP FORT WAYNE TO CHICAGO THAT LEFT FT. WAYNE 31 MINUTES LATE AND ARRIVED IN CHICAGO ON TIME. HE NEVER SAID IF HE HAD A STOKER. IF NOT HE PUT SOME WEAR ON A SHOVEL. I LIVED A QUARTER MILE SOUTH OF THE PRR MAIN WEST OF COLUMBIA CITY IN THOSE DAYS AND WITNESSED SOME REAL SPEED. I THINK COLUMBIA CITY WAS A FLAG STOP.
KEITH

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Post by Guest » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:52 am

Greg46m wrote:I find it hard to believe that NS would willingly give up this line if they outright owned it. Are you sure that they didn't just have a long-term lease of the line from CR? I don't see how the NTSB could have actually said that NS had to hand the line over if they fully owned it. I could see the NTSB giving CSX the line from FW-Crestline and mandatory trackage rights on the rest of it from FW-Chicago, but forcing a RR to just hand over a line they owned, I dunno. Just my $.02
I had heard "bought" as in "owns"....But have no real proof.....But like you, I have always found it hard to swallow that NS simply gave that up, to pave the way for the Conrail splir deal

I guess you would have to know how much NS paid for the line, and compare that to the economics of not having their asquisition of the water level route approved.


Conceeding the old pennsy line would be seen as "hush money" for anyone likely to object to the bigger picture., under such a scenario

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Post by Ed Mosser » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:16 pm

regarding your question of any business on the line...FWCH (Fort Wayne - Chicago) train just cleared Valpo with 70 cars. That is the largest I have seen on this line. I dont know all of the particulars of the loads/empties, etc. but it was a pretty good looking train.

By the way, NS 17R was limping thru town with 3 engines and 149 cars, I think one of the units was down as the train was making only about 10mph. Units were an unpainted NS in primier, BNSF, and CN unit. Lots of loads of lumber. Perhaps he will make Ft Wayne today.

ed

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Fort Wayne Line

Post by David Safdy » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:31 am

As with many things in life, hindsight is 20/20. The carving of Conrail to NS and CSX probably looked good on a map to a bunch of businessmen in a florescent-lit conference room, far away from any rail facilities. Of course the reality is that the Fort Wayne Line needs major improvements to be usable as through-line again. The western Ohio portion of the line does not have the capacity to run through- traffic on it. NS found this out quickly when they ran their St.Louis-Pittsburgh intermodal trains on it for a few years. The dispatcher question - in this day of collisions occurring on Class 1s at alarming rates, dispatching is needed - even on the Fort Wayne Line. NS Pittsburgh West still dispatches it east of Adams, I believe?

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Greg46m
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Post by Greg46m » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:06 pm

You know, I think I should get with Mr. Millspaugh and get down a list of all the sidings and their lengths on this line because I can't think of a single one off hand. The more I think of it, it'd be nice for newbies to be able to look at a map of the entire NE Indiana rail system that includes all the sidings. Make hunting for that train you heard call a restricting at Spencerville a lot easier if you don't know the territory.

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Bob Durnell
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Post by Bob Durnell » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:48 pm

After NS and CSX agreed in principal to split up Conrail, they had to find a way to split routes to give each company competitive routes to major markets. One of the key issues was since CSX ripped up much of the old B&O across southern Ohio, they lacked a competitive route to St Louis from the east. Because of this, they coveted CR's former Big Four route from Cleveland to to Terre Haute? and then the former Pennsy to St. Louis. NS used this as a bargining chip to get the former NYC west of Cleveland, which is obviously a superior route for intermodal and and hot freight than the former NKP. This would have given NS three tracks (2 NYC, one NKP) tracks from Chicago to Cleveland, plus a fourth route (Ex Pennsy into eastern ohio, while CSX would have only two tracks, and that only after re-double tracking the B&O. This would have created a competitive imbalance in what is probably the number one corridor for the an eastern class one. Also, NS coveted the former PRR in Pennsylvania for it's coal traffic. I think the Pennsy Fort Wayne line was clearly viewed by NS as being expendable, especially if it got them the NYC and the Penn. lines they wanted. As much as I love the old Pennsy, NS clearly got the better end of this deal. The fact that CSX ended up leasing the line, proves that they got backed around into an inferior deal, caused mostly by their short sightedness in ripping up the old B&O southern route. The only downside for NS was getting shut out of Indianapolis for the most part, but that was a VERY small price to pay for what they gained. When NS bought the former Pennsy Ft. Wayne line, it made sense at the time. The NKP was jammed with traffic and the FT. Wayne line gave them a relief valve at a bargain basement price. Ultimately though, The Pennsy has a lot of limitations and giving it up would have been a very easy choice for NS.
If my opinions offend you, you should see the ones I keep to myself........

Steve Bryan

Post by Steve Bryan » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:12 pm

"A TRIP FORT WAYNE TO CHICAGO THAT LEFT FT. WAYNE 31 MINUTES LATE AND ARRIVED IN CHICAGO ON TIME. "

Dale McNeal (a long-time cionductor on the Broadway Ltd.) once told me that after WWII, they would leave Union Station in Chicago and be in the station in Fort Wayne 1 hr. and 58 min. later. Now that was high speed rail!

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high-speed

Post by Joe Millspaugh » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:34 pm

very good time from CUS to Ft.Wayne...many times I have run the NYC route leaving Waterloo with the right train...good power and limited slow orders and making CUS in 2hrs 45 min...running legal but running hard...if all was right you could make the trip in less time...just had to know where and when to cut a few corners and open-em up...not to mention the Broadway was a limited....next stop...Chicago...while I was running the Lakeshore into Chicago we stopped at every station...Elkhart...S.Bend...Hammond and had to take a little trip around the wye at 21st street to dump the roadrailers...still making the bumping post in good time...should never have had to haul those damn roadrailers...too much jackin around goin into and leaving Chicago..made for a slow train and longer running times due to the added weight and poor braking response from the equipment since the brakes had been set to direct release due to the frieght equipment...oh well...not like I have to fight against time anymore...and I don't think we will see the days again when the roadforeman of engines will call you in to his office for not making up lost time...those days are long gone...every official I have know in the "modern" mind set are all about trying to find a guy breakin a speed rule and then bustin him...does not make one want to go out there and really make up time....there is no other way to do it... :twisted: :twisted:

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Post by KEITH_HARRIS » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:08 pm

STEVE. DALE MCNEAL WAS ONE NICE PERSON.
JOE, I KNEW A FEW WEED WEASELS ALSO.
KEITH

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Post by JW » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:30 pm

Keith when did you make the run with Duxbury on 40? I braked freight for him a couple times in '67-68.

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